• Question: If there was a star in the universe that was so immensely hot that its wavelength was that of the Planck distance. (Obviously this is purely theoretical) say we managed to add more energy to make it hotter, what would happen to the wavelength, it can't get smaller, but it has to? If you can answer this, I will vote for you, get thinking scientists!

    Asked by emperor9271 to Chris, Dave, David, Fiona, Jack on 16 Jun 2013.
    • Photo: Jack Miller

      Jack Miller answered on 16 Jun 2013:


      Hi Emperor9271,

      Wow, what a good question! First off, a disclaimer: I’m not really an astrophysicist, but I’m sure the others will quickly correct me if I say anything they disagree with!

      The short answer is that it wouldn’t be a star anymore — nor, in fact, would it be to start with. Stars are defined primarily by a few properties — such as mass, radius, temperature and luminosity (brightness). Stars are very good “black bodies”, which means that their colour is determined primarily by their temperature alone — there’s a distribution in the wavelength of light they emit, with a large peak that decreases (i.e. gets bluer) with temperature. The temperature of the star is, itself, linked to other things — most notably mass and what elements are being used to fuel the star by the process of nuclear fusion in its core. It’s actually quite hard to calculate exactly this relationship, and there are various approximate forms that give reasonably accurate (for astrophysics) answers. Likewise, there’s a relationship between stellar radius and mass, and all of these things together give a mathematical description of a star.

      If you take the classical understanding of how stars work, and turn “the dial up to 11”, i.e. work out the temperature that your ‘star’ would have to be in order to emit light with a wavelength on the Planck scale, you’ll find probably that a) your ordinary calculator can’t hack it, and b) you’ll get a truly enormous number. This would correspond to a star with an insanely high mass. If you then work out the pressure that all this mass would cause in the star’s core, you’d quickly work out that it was a very large number indeed — far larger than the limits for ordinary “main sequence” stars, or indeed neutron stars (which are even denser than stars made out of ordinary matter) — and, instead of having a hypothetical star, you should really be thinking about a hypothetical black hole. At this point, your black hole obviously doesn’t radiate much — hence the reason they’re black, although there’s a complicated process called Hawking radiation by which black holes gradually “evaporate” and lose mass by quantum effects — but we can still ask your question of what would happen as you add mass to it. Boring answer: you get a bigger black hole. Add more mass to that? Bigger black hole.

      In fact, there exist very, very large black holes at the centre of galaxies (including ours!) called supermassive black holes, with masses on the order of 20 billion times that of the sun (which itself has a mass of around 10^30 kg). Your hypothetical star-that-became-a-black-hole-as-soon-as-you-constructed-it would have a mass that, I think, if my back-of-the-envelope calculations are roughly correct, would probably not be more than about ten orders of magnitude greater than one of these supermassive black holes, though I’m still fairly convinced it could never form in nature. Why? As black holes get larger, their mass and their radius increases. As their radius increases (roughly proportionally with their mass), the more Hawking radiation you get, and when talking about very large structures it’s been theorised that this outward facing radiation becomes significant — disturbing the clouds of gas that (at the centre of a galaxy) “feed” this otherwise evaporating black hole.

      Lastly, I’d better say what Hawking radiation actually is, as it’s rather cool: the vacuum of space (or anywhere else, for that matter) isn’t quite as static and boring as you might think it is. It’s entirely possible for it to fluctuate, creating particle-antiparticle pairs that briefly form and then quickly annihilate each other. If one of these particle-antiparticle pairs appears close to the event horizon of a black hole — the point beyond which nothing, not even light, can escape — one of the pair might fall into the black hole whilst the other escapes. In order to preserve total energy, the particle that fell into the black hole must have had a negative energy (with respect to an observer far away from the black hole). By this process, the black hole loses mass, and, to an outside observer, it would appear that the black hole has just emitted a particle. Pretty neat, huh?

      Sorry for an absolutely enormous wall of text — I hope it makes sense!

      Thanks for an excellent question,

      — Jack

    • Photo: David Freeborn

      David Freeborn answered on 17 Jun 2013:


      Hi emperor9271,

      That’s a very interesting and exciting question.

      As Jack already pointed out, it wouldn’t really be possible to get a star to such a hot temperature (it would become a black hole), but let’s suppose it were possible…

      Wien’s law (the law that relates a star’s temperature to the wavelength of light it emits) is really just a statistical law, because temperature is a statistical property. What the temperature is really telling us is how fast the atoms within the star are vibrating. And in principle (though never in practice), it would be possible to get an atom vibrating at such a high frequency that it could emit radiation of such a small wavelength.

      This would be a very weird quantum mechanical effect. As the atom vibrated faster and faster, the size of its vibrations would have to shrink smaller and smaller- to stop the atom moving faster than the speed of light. In fact, to emit light of Planck length wavelengths, the atom would have to be vibrating at the Planck Wavelength. This is possible, but it wouldn’t be possible to get the atom to vibrate any faster- that’s the minimal distance the atom could vibrate.

      Thanks to Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, the smaller the vibration is, the less we know about the atom’s momentum, so there would be a lot of quantum uncertainty, but in principle this would be possible. It could emit a light-wave at the Planck wavelength, but no smaller. We simply couldn’t get the atoms to vibrate any faster.

      I guess what this means is that there’s a maximum energy scale a light-wave can have. That’s a really interesting concept, and not something I had considered before. It also means there’s a maximum temperature that the Universe can have. No existing theory can really describe this well. We need new and better theories to describe physics at this scale!

      Physicists still disagree a lot about precisely what the Planck scale means. Some say it’s the minimum distance that anything can happen in the Universe, but some think it’s just the minimum distance it is possible to measure.

      Anyway, thanks for the very interesting question!

    • Photo: Dave Farmer

      Dave Farmer answered on 17 Jun 2013:


      I’m with Jack and David on this, awesome question.

      As they’ve already answered the question excellently with regards to a star with this energy and the very creation of light at these wavelengths, I’ve taken a slightly different tack. Bear in mind that this area is not my speciality, I’ve been chatting with one of our cosmologists, but I’m sure I’ll be corrected if I say anything stupid!

      I started by trying to imagine what a light wave would look like at the Planck length. However, when you get down to these length scales, the very idea of a light wave (or a photon) is invalid. As our understanding runs at the moment, there are 4 fundamental forces in the universe, Gravity, Electromagnetic, Strong and Weak (yeah, we weren’t that inventive with the last two names). When we talk about light, we’re dealing with the electromagnetic force. However, when you get to high energies (small length scales) these forces start to merge.

      In fact, the electromagnetic force merges with the weak force (called electroweak theory) well before you’d reach these energies (a temperature of approximately 10^15 K, which corresponds to a length scale of roughly 10^-18 m). Past this point, ‘light’ is not easy to define.

      If we go further, all the way past the Planck length (10^-35 m) then we also need a quantum description of gravity. This is an area of intense research and argument at the moment. Essentially, I think answering your question calls for a theory unifying all the forces, the so called Grand Unified Theory!

      This is one of the holy grails of modern physics, and it’s worth pointing out that if any of us were able to answer your question in these terms, in addition to your vote we’d probably also get a Nobel prize!

      Dave

    • Photo: Chris Mansell

      Chris Mansell answered on 17 Jun 2013:


      Hi there,

      This link gives a good answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_hot

      I was interested in these sorts of questions when I was school. I knew that when things got hot, they moved faster and I knew there was a maximum speed at which things could travel, namely the speed of light. What I didn’t know was the reason why things could not exceed the speed of light. I eventually learnt that as things move faster, they get more massive. The more massive something is the harder it is to increase its speed. This resolved my curiosity about very hot things but you seem to know more than I did back then. Basically, as the others have said, at very high energies and short distances, new scientific theories need to be developed.

      Chris

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